I'd love to see this system become optional for college students…

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Beer

Home Forums Money I'd love to see this system become optional for college students…

This topic contains 43 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Anonymousyam  anonymousyam 6 months ago.

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  • #885465
    +7
    Beer
    Beer
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    11638

    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/blackstone-tony-james-jim-runcie-student-debt-crisis-income-share-agreement-182529156.html

    Basically rather than take a traditional student loan, you instead agree to pay a percentage of your income for a fixed amount of years post graduation. Its almost comical people think this would actually work.

    Right now you get people who commute to community college for 2 years, then to a state school for 2 who work while they are doing it and get minimal loans, you get people with scholarships, you get people with parents helping them out, you get people who go part time and pay as they go, you get people who take s~~~ty jobs with tuition reimbursement, etc who would never sign up for this s~~~. All the people who finish with a below average amount of debt would not be interested. Getting a degree in a field that pays well above an average wage? Yeah…you are opting out too.

    So who would be left? Clearly all the idiots who live on campus at expensive colleges and borrow every dime they can will think this is an awesome idea, or people getting bulls~~~ SJW degrees where their eventual “career” will never justify the expense of college.

    Why would I love to see this system implemented? It would be a f~~~ing perfect living example of why socialism/communism fails. Everyone that thinks they are going to get more out of it than what they put in would join this program and it would be like a contest to see who could f~~~ the system over the hardest, because that would be the only way to come out ahead. Everyone with a clue would just make good choices and ignore all the commie morons who’s idea of “paying your fair share” is someone else picking up the tab for them. In the end, who would be worse? Some big bank charging you 5% on your student loans, or your comrade who decides to take a couple gap years after graduating because what is the point of working hard just to have to pay a bigger chunk towards the price of their degree?

    #885492
    +6
    FrankOne
    FrankOne
    Participant
    1291

    In my mind, the current system is the perfect example of how government subsidies and intervention raise costs and distort markets. Most student loans are government loans.

    At this point, there is more student loan debt than even credit card or auto loan debt. Only housing debt is higher than student loan debt.

    How did we get here? Government backed loans and the interest waiver. If you want affordable higher education, the best way to get there is getting the government out of student loans.

    At this point it costs about twice as much for a four year degree, in inflation adjusted dollars, than when I graduated about 25 years ago. About $104,000. Now, I have a moderate income, but if I had kids, it would take 3/4 of one YEAR of my ENTIRE after tax income to send just one to school to cover all 4 years of their education. In comparison, I could buy the house I reside in, in about two years of total after tax income…

    Implementing the described scheme will eliminate price signals required for market functioning. That is, students won’t care if the job market for their degree is weak or strong, or salaries low or high. So it will unfold just as you say.

    There is also way too much emphasis on pretty buildings. Students want everything new, new, new. When I graduated facilities were somewhat shabby. The constant drive to build fancy new buildings with mostly empty classrooms, is also a cost driver.

    One of the top ranking factors for colleges ought to be annual tuition—affordability.

    There is no shame associated with taking out a huge loan instead of working part time. Debt is no longer looked down on.

    At the end of the day all these loans will be forgiven anyway — the taxpayer will take it up the ass. Count on it. As more and more young people vote, that is HOW they will vote.

    Government backed and guaranteed student loans have been around since the late 1950’s, though originally, they were only for students in engineering, the sciences, and education. It was meant to keep up with Sputnik. And so it is also a classic case of government growth and expansion. Of course, once a government program is started it is almost impossible to kill, because it develops a support base who strongly desire and lobby for it, while all other voters are mostly indifferent towards it.

    Social security, disability, and government student loans are already perfect examples of how and why government doesn’t work.

    But they won’t be seriously reformed until imminent collapse. Maybe not even then. We also ought to end the loan forgiveness program.

    #885505
    +3
    IMickey503
    iMickey503
    Participant
    10708

    COLLEGE is S~~~. Most of it. Sorry. You don’t get rich working for others. You work for yourself.

    You are all alone. If you have been falsely accused of RAPE, DV, PLEASE let all men know about the people who did this. http://register-her.net/web/guest/home

    #885507
    +3
    Bstoff
    bstoff
    Participant
    4339

    Why would I love to see this system implemented? It would be a f~~~ing perfect living example of why socialism/communism fails.

    This is why I thought the election of Obama in 2008 would be beneficial for America, assuming that the general public would become aware of how ridiculous Communism/Socialism is and how it impacts a country.
    Unfortunately, the media spun almost everything awful that Obama and the left had done into a miracle cure for Capitalism and individual responsibility.

    If you think things are in the s~~~ter now, wait until more of those Obama-era college students are eligible to run for higher national office in America.

    #885515
    +3
    Monk
    Monk
    Participant
    14136

    What happens when they don’t get a job afterwards?

    Here in the UK ‘uni’ is nothing more than state funded (the government writes off most loans) cop-out for SJW layabouts and politicians who want to fiddle the unemployment figures.

    #885556
    +1
    Beer
    Beer
    Participant
    11638

    At the end of the day all these loans will be forgiven anyway — the taxpayer will take it up the ass. Count on it. As more and more young people vote, that is HOW they will vote.

    It wouldn’t shock me, but at the same time a lot of people actually do just shut their mouth and pay their loans back like they should. Maybe a certain percentage of millennials will be pro student loan forgiveness in their 40s or whatever, but I also know quite a few who paid their debts back and just want others to do the same.

    But they won’t be seriously reformed until imminent collapse. Maybe not even then. We also ought to end the loan forgiveness program.

    Reform should just be 50% of all your income above the federal poverty level gets taken directly out of your paycheck and goes towards your student loans until your student loans are paid. Get rid of forbearance…if you have a period of low income, it will auto adjust being based upon your income. Most people make plenty to pay their loans back, they just don’t want to prioritize it. If you want to massively over borrow on a degree you can’t monetize, no big deal, you’ll still be living above the poverty line so you have no right to complain.

    That…and maybe we should teach basic finances in high school so people are graduating financially illiterate. its been going on for decades now that people have been crying “I didn’t know any better, I was 18 when I signed for those loans.” Why hasn’t our education system adjusted, and why is that still an excuse when their 40-50 year old parents cosigned? Its obviously a problem if we have multiple generations that don’t know how loans work.

    COLLEGE is S~~~. Most of it. Sorry. You don’t get rich working for others. You work for yourself.

    You get rich investing. Rich people barely work for themselves, they let other people work for them.

    If you think things are in the s~~~ter now, wait until more of those Obama-era college students are eligible to run for higher national office in America.

    Sadly I’ve been planning on this happening for a while now. Its why future plans for myself involve early retiring abroad and retiring early. I can keep myself at a moderate income so my tax burden is low, but that income will afford me a comfy lifestyle in a lot of other countries.

    What happens when they don’t get a job afterwards?

    Here in the UK ‘uni’ is nothing more than state funded (the government writes off most loans) cop-out for SJW layabouts and politicians who want to fiddle the unemployment figures.

    Yup…for those that complain the hardest about student loans its generally the ones who used college as 4 years of expensive partying for a low paying degree. It would literally just be a system designed to give the most benefit to the poorest decision makers and the laziest. If a system like this was voluntary and self funded for 90% of people it would end up being way more affordable to just take loans and go it on your own and not be responsible for subsidizing the outliers. Of course it wouldn’t work, because when some lazy moron saw the huge percent of their income for however many years they would have to pay to keep the system solvent they would probably take a gap year after college, then try to get a job working for tips to hide their income. Meanwhile they’d be bitching the whole time about other people not paying their fair share.

    #885765
    +2

    Anonymous
    0

    Government backed and guaranteed student loans have been around since the late 1950’s, though originally, they were only for students in engineering, the sciences, and education. It was meant to keep up with Sputnik.

    That was back when Society was still functional. Having top notch STEM students is a must for a country that aims to be the best.

    Its also a National Security issue. It would have been unthinkable to staff your research programs with a majority of Chinese Communists, which is common place now. Our National Security is totally compromised.

    With the United States test scores dropping decade after decade, I would declare a state of emergency. Not enough Americans are majoring in STEM. They even have “open book exams” now because too many students would fail out if they didn’t. Our College Graduates wouldn’t be able to pass a high school final exam back in 1940!!!

    #885838
    +1
    Narwhal
    narwhal
    Participant

    The idea of student loans seemed ridiculous because there is no collateral on the loan. On a home loan, if you default on the loan, you lose the house. Car loan, you lose the house. Any other type of loan, you have to put up collateral that the banks get to take if you don’t take back the loan. Student loan? No collateral. All you can really lose is your credit rating. Why does this type of loan even exist?

    The reality is that student loans are part of the reason why college costs are so high. People who get loans like this care less bout the cost because they are under the assumption that they will have no issue paying it off…or their future husband will pay it. It prevents market forces from setting prices accurately. The same happens with medicine.

    So I’d fought for no government loans. No loans without collateral, or at least a loan that the private industry is willing to fund. Earn the money first they go to college. Go to a school you can afford.

    Ok. Then do it.

    #886126
    +1
    FrankOne
    FrankOne
    Participant
    1291

    Narwhal: Student loans are kind of interesting. Not only is there no collateral, but they GENERALLY aren’t dischargeable in bankruptcy, either. That only came about in 1976. After 1976, they could still be discharged in bankruptcy, BUT only after 5 years of payment; it has gotten progressively harder to discharge them in bankruptcy since, due to additional legislation. So this affords the creditor some protection.

    No government loans for colleges? You’re no fun! If we do that, it will stop the tuition inflation! Of course, I agree with you.

    I’m impressed also that you make the connection with health care; private insurance, provided through the workplace with a tax break, is, paradoxically, the LEADING cause of out-of-control health care inflation. If most people DIDN’T have insurance through work, and most people had to pay OUT of pocket, AND health care was less regulated (no ‘certificates of need’ to start a new hospital, limits to medical liability tort cases, allow nurse practitioners to perform more procedures, etc), costs would be much, much lower.

    As for student loans, this type of loan exists because it is profitable, since the issuer will typically be paid — it is difficult to cancel or discharge a student loan even in bankruptcy. This special ‘feature’ of student loans makes them less risky to lenders.

    #886444
    Anonymousyam
    anonymousyam
    Participant
    4605

    Basically rather than take a traditional student loan, you instead agree to pay a percentage of your income for a fixed amount of years post graduation. Its almost comical people think this would actually work.

    Or they could just make College cheaper such as it being free or it being free with certain conditions like other modern Nations? especially since the System we have now sets the Economy up to hit the s~~~s especially after more and more tax cuts (debt reduces spending power and weakens the Economy to where People only buy what is needed).

    Why would I love to see this system implemented? It would be a f~~~ing perfect living example of why socialism/communism fails.

    You mean tuition free college or the fixed percent of income going to your debt? when it comes to failing Socially Democratic systems are some of the best in the World and do not fail aside from Immigration and Feminism and when it comes to Socialist nations alot of them get affected by US Sanctions, Embargoes and even intentionally screwing them over (such as f~~~ing Venezuela by using Saudis to cut the prices of oil thereby cutting their income and now trying to install a Capitalist puppet in the Country).

    Just an east coast asshole who likes to curse, If you get offended by words like fuck, cunt, shit, piss, bitch or any racial slurs then you just scroll down.

    #886454
    +2
    Beer
    Beer
    Participant
    11638

    Or they could just make College cheaper such as it being free or it being free with certain conditions like other modern Nations?

    Will colleges be funded by private donations and run by volunteers, or you just living in a fantasy land where its free?

    especially since the System we have now sets the Economy up to hit the s~~~s especially after more and more tax cuts (debt reduces spending power and weakens the Economy to where People only buy what is needed).

    You mean a system where federal student loans and state colleges are expensive before you even consider private, for profit colleges?

    What do you think the government should do to improve the already not for profit colleges they run? Just wave a wand and magically make them free?

    You mean tuition free college or the fixed percent of income going to your debt?

    Income sharing agreements. I wouldn’t talk about “free” college because its a terrible idea. I’ve already paid for mine, no, I don’t want to pay for yours, and no I don’t want to pay for people who just want to go party for four years and not end up with a worthwhile degree. People who get worthwhile degrees and choose more affordable colleges typically aren’t the ones crying about student loans.

    when it comes to failing Socially Democratic systems are some of the best in the World and do not fail aside from Immigration and Feminism and when it comes to Socialist nations alot of them get affected by US Sanctions, Embargoes and even intentionally screwing them over (such as f~~~ing Venezuela by using Saudis to cut the prices of oil thereby cutting their income and now trying to install a Capitalist puppet in the Country).

    You realize Venezuela was a founding member of OPEC along with the Saudis, don’t you? What f~~~ed Venezuela and took a lot of power away from OPEC was the price of oil cratering when the United States became the largest producer in the world, and I’m not seeing how that is a bad thing considering they didn’t mind f~~~ing us when oil was over 100 dollars a barrel and gas near 4 dollars a gallon. Saudis aren’t any happier about it than Venezuela is.

    As far as socially democratic systems that seem to work ok, they are literally all majority white Euro countries that up until recently have had very little immigration, and most of the immigration they did have has been from neighboring countries…which also tended to be majority white, of similar culture, and wealthy. You will see those systems evolve or collapse in the coming decades as they become saddles with more poor immigrants who aren’t interested in assimilating.

    #886576
    +2
    FrankOne
    FrankOne
    Participant
    1291

    Anonymousyam writes: Or they could just make College cheaper such as it being free or it being free with certain conditions like other modern Nations?

    Beer: “Free” in the modern political vernacular, means ‘paid for by anybody BUT me’. Haha.

    I truly find it comical. Government CREATED the problem of tuition inflation by issuing student loans. So then it will SOLVE the problem it created, by, you guessed it — MORE government spending and interference in the economy, by 100% subsidized higher education.

    We already know how terribly the primary and secondary public schools perform; so effectively letting the government run ALL schools, must be an even BETTER idea. The Federal government paying for them, will mean LESS competition and MORE top-down control and even MORE inefficiencies! That is inevitable.

    I also don’t give a rat’s ass what ‘other modern nations’ do. I prefer limited government — a concept NOT embraced by almost any nation’s government.

    when it comes to failing Socially Democratic systems are some of the best in the World and do not fail aside from Immigration and Feminism and when it comes to Socialist nations alot of them get affected by US Sanctions,

    How long do you think countries can sustain national debts of 100%+ of GDP? The UK is at 88% of GDP. The US is at about 105%. I can’t blame out-of-control spending on feminism or immigration. I call these high debts a ‘failure’. These systems are ‘the best in the world’ for people who DON’T WANT TO WORK HARD. They are the worst S~~~ for people that DO work hard, have high incomes, and pay for the ‘s~~~show’ of governmental programs, departments, huge numbers of government workers, and regulations.

    Somehow when the 800,000 federal workers didn’t go to work for a month, I got along just fine. But I still had to take it up the ass and pay for their paid vacation when it was over.

    Anonymousyam: I’ll ask a specific question. Do you think the youth unemployment rate in France (presumably a socialist paradise), is 28.3% because of socialism and restrictive labor laws, or because of US sanctions, immigration, and feminism? Remember, it’s been high LONG before Arab refugees entered in large numbers. What do you think would happen to US economic growth if the public sector were reduced from 37% of output to 30%?

    Since most of these EU countries have total fertility rates that have tanked, and their retirement programs are ponzi schemes, they HAVE to take in immigrants. The UK is at 41% of GDP comprising government spending; the US is at 37%; so not much different really. Their plan may well backfire, though, because they have not put LIMITS on eligibility for social welfare programs, for these new immigrants!

    What f~~~ed Venezuela and took a lot of power away from OPEC was the price of oil cratering when the United States became the largest producer in the world, and I’m not seeing how that is a bad thing considering they didn’t mind f~~~ing us when oil was over 100 dollars a barrel and gas near 4 dollars a gallon. Saudis aren’t any happier about it than Venezuela is.

    Absolutely. It’s a very GOOD thing for everyone outside oil and gas industry (lower prices hurt my industry!), because it’s an input for so many products.

    #886618
    +3

    Anonymous
    0

    I truly find it comical. Government CREATED the problem of tuition inflation by issuing student loans. So then it will SOLVE the problem it created, by, you guessed it — MORE government spending and interference in the economy, by 100% subsidized higher education.

    Yes, Government helped create the problem, but also too many people are going to college. There is too much demand pushing the prices up. The Universities have created so many useless departments and degrees with gigantic budgets driving the operating costs of the Universities way up.

    Its a complicated issue and as I like to point out, its a National Security crisis really. The majority of our students in Engineering are coming from Communist China. A country that is actively engaging in Intellectual Property theft and other saboteur actions against us. The Universities are giving them Scholarships (and research grants) to be here too.

    The system we had in the 1950s worked pretty well (from what I hear). Big corporations would subsidize these Engineering colleges and staff them with retired Engineers, who were still on the company pay roll. Students would be working for the company while going to school. Then they would have a nice entry level position secured before even graduating. No debt required. It was a win win situation. The companies got well trained top notch employees and the students got a good technical education and job security.

    My personal experience with University was completely f~~~ed up. I was an average student in high school, but I was a 4.0 student in college. All 4.0 in every STEM class I took. The University offered me a scholarship for performing so well. It covered less than 10% of my tuition costs. I ended up having to choose: Get a loan or drop out. Meanwhile there were women and foreigners going to University for free because “muh Diversity.”

    #886623
    +1
    FrankOne
    FrankOne
    Participant
    1291

    Yes, Government helped create the problem, but also too many people are going to college. There is too much demand pushing the prices up. The Universities have created so many useless departments and degrees with gigantic budgets driving the operating costs of the Universities way up.

    I view it as ‘credentialism’ and ‘cover your ass’.

    Hiring managers, ‘Human Resources’, will hire candidates for many positions, only if they have the magical sheepskin.

    They may still be incompetent, but the hiring manager, has covered their ass!

    I would argue that large universities should in theory be MORE efficient, but markets are distorted by government subsidies. My main criticism of the system in STEM, is the high cost, the failure to provide more PRACTICAL experience (e.g. integration of co-op work to degree programs), and outright REQUIRING degrees for so many jobs.

    The majority of our students in Engineering are coming from Communist China.

    https://www.asee.org/papers-and-publications/publications/college-profiles/15EngineeringbytheNumbersPart1.pdf

    At the undergraduate level, only 9.8% of students were foreign; at the graduate degree level, it’s 56.1% foreign and at the doctoral level, 56.9% foreign. So clearly, the majority of our students are not foreign, let alone Chinese; taking the figures on page 46 of this report, you can calculate international Engineering students, including masters and graduate students, and for that aggregate figure, I come up with 21.6%: (9.8%*610461+56.1%*130919+56.9%*75935)/(610461+130919+75935)*100 = 21.6% — that aggregate figure was not explicitly stated in the report. I’d say somewhere around half of those foreign students are Chinese — so ABOUT 11%. This last figure is an estimate — that last figure is a little harder to look up.

    If you just want to look at raw numbers of international students across all degree programs, China, India, and South Korea are the leaders. See https://www.statista.com/statistics/233880/international-students-in-the-us-by-country-of-origin/

    So the majority of our engineering students are NOT coming from China since only 21.6% are foreign students, and some lesser percent than that, probably around half, Chinese. As an engineering graduate, I can say these foreign students, study for their masters and PhD’s to a much greater extent than domestic students; that is why 27% of US engineering professors are Asian; bear in mind the US population is only 5.6% Asian.

    Did you know that 70% of doctoral students stay in the US for at least 5 years? Also, these foreign students pay the HIGHEST tuition; they get no subsidies, they help keep the Universities afloat.

    I’m against all the diversity scholarships; on that we agree. Most foreign students, though, receive NO domestic scholarships. Some ritzy private institutions fund them generously; however, at public universities such as the one I graduated from, foreign students paid even more than ‘out of State tuition’, they paid a tuition that was DOUBLE what I paid. It was not subsidized. One reason the Universities love these foreign students is, they make more MONEY off them because they are CHARGED MUCH HIGHER TUITION.

    If you still want an Engineering degree, try a public university, part time. One of my work colleagues is doing that. Sure, it’s a bitch — he’s been at it 10 years — but will have his fully paid for degree in the next year, before he’s 30. It’s ironic, he’ll likely get a $25,000 – $35,000 a year raise, doing the same job he’s doing now, once he has that magical sheepskin.

    #886658
    Beer
    Beer
    Participant
    11638

    Beer: “Free” in the modern political vernacular, means ‘paid for by anybody BUT me’. Haha.

    Which ironically they are generally too short sighted to realize they will still end up paying for it. Its just right now you have options, you can bypass college and go into some sort of trade, you can go to college but do it cheaply as possible(community college for 2 years, commute, maybe go part time and work as you go to minimize loans, etc), or you can just say f~~~ it, live on campus for 4 years, do it all on credit and not care about the cost, then cry about it later.

    If college is “free” for everyone, who wins? The people take the most expensive route win, and the people who earn the least after college win. “Free” college is basically like the cost sharing thing in my original post, just on a larger scale and everyone is forced into it.

    From a MGTOW perspective I already paid for mine and I don’t have any kids. “Free” college at this point is just me subsidizing single moms who want to go take classes to take one last stab at securing a wallet, and me subsidizing all their Chadspawn. Why do I want to do that?

    The UK is at 41% of GDP comprising government spending; the US is at 37%; so not much different really.

    Interesting comparisons between US and UK to think about…

    On healthcare…our government spends more per capita on healthcare than the British government, yet the British government provides universal coverage for all. Why is part of our national healthcare debate not questioning why the money our government is spending is so ineffective compared to what the UK does with less? The left wants to give the government more control and more power and they can’t even manage what they already have effectively.

    On college…the UK used to have “free” college for everyone and they stopped that system. Why? When it became free for everyone, more people started going, and people started taking it less seriously. They had the exact situation we have right now, a massively expensive college system that was pumping out a lot of useless degrees. England is an example of where “free” college failed massively.

    “Free for me” types like anonymousyam often want to point out a small handful of small countries where socialism, or “democratic socialism” hasn’t failed (yet), but just want to turn a blind eye to the much larger number of countries where it has outright failed and imploded, or to mixed systems like the UK’s experiment with free college where socialist policies failed miserably, just not hard enough to also tank the capitalist segment of society.

    My personal experience with University was completely f~~~ed up. I was an average student in high school, but I was a 4.0 student in college. All 4.0 in every STEM class I took. The University offered me a scholarship for performing so well. It covered less than 10% of my tuition costs. I ended up having to choose: Get a loan or drop out. Meanwhile there were women and foreigners going to University for free because “muh Diversity.”

    I saw the same thing in college. Single moms were getting Pell grants and literally being paid to take classes. Not just their classes were being paid for…they were literally being paid to be there. Meanwhile, because I hadn’t already f~~~ed my life up, I had to bust my ass at a s~~~ty job and pay an arm and a leg to attend. All I could think was “How the f~~~ is this fair?”

    The system we had in the 1950s worked pretty well (from what I hear). Big corporations would subsidize these Engineering colleges and staff them with retired Engineers, who were still on the company pay roll. Students would be working for the company while going to school. Then they would have a nice entry level position secured before even graduating. No debt required. It was a win win situation. The companies got well trained top notch employees and the students got a good technical education and job security.

    The company I work for runs a program like this at the local community college. They subsidize the program and offer various paid internships and whatnot during the program. Most of the teachers for classes specific to that program were also current or retired employees from said company. So pretty much when you get done you end up with some great references through the teachers you’ve had as they have contacts in the company, and if you took advantage of the internship program you’d have already gotten your foot in the door with the company. When we graduated I’d say pretty much 1/3 of the class wanted to move on academically to get higher up degrees, 1/3 stepped right into well paying jobs at that company either in house or through contracting companies, and the rest either took jobs elsewhere or were just lazy, immature, and didn’t really take it seriously or make a good impression on anyone.

    It really is a win win…as the company subsidized the program they had a heavy say in the content of the program and could basically use it to pre-screen employees. They pretty much got to jam 2 years worth of training down your throat without having to pay you employee wages during the course of the program. As a student you ended up in a program with a good chance of an above average paying job when you graduate.

    The local hospital also subsidizes a similar nursing program for RNs at my local community college where people are literally graduating one day and starting off making 30+ an hour the next. Its almost funny the extent to which a lot of people living on campus for 4 years will look down upon community colleges…but in reality community colleges are f~~~ing awesome. If you want a higher up degree its a cheap first two years. If you can take advantage of specialized programs they offer they are a cheap entry into some well paying jobs. Hell I know one girl who got an x-ray tech cert at the local community college…its basically a one year program. She’s laughing all the way to the bank because she makes more than a lot of people with 4 year degrees, didn’t have to take on any student debt, and got to start working 3 years earlier.

    Its just a shame as a society its like we brainwash people into thinking they need to go live on campus somewhere for four years, when in reality for a lot of people that ends up being the worst financial decision you can make.

    If you still want an Engineering degree, try a public university, part time. One of my work colleagues is doing that. Sure, it’s a bitch — he’s been at it 10 years — but will have his fully paid for degree in the next year, before he’s 30. It’s ironic, he’ll likely get a $25,000 – $35,000 a year raise, doing the same job he’s doing now, once he has that magical sheepskin.

    This is what I did for college…worked full time, sometimes with a part time job on top, and took classes part time. I made about 35-40k a year during those years. It took 8 years for a 4 year degree and 2 more for a different associates afterwards. After 10 total years of college from start to finish, the day I graduated I had no student loans, already owned my condo and been making 6 years worth of mortgage payments on it at that point, had no car payment, had 30k cash saved up, had at that point 10 years credited towards a pension, and already had a job I could support myself on and just needed to now find a better one in my field. Meanwhile all my friends that had lived on campus for four years were still buried in student loans, renting s~~~ty apartments, and I doubt had any more savings beyond the minimum to get their company 401k match, if they haven’t already job hopped and withdrew it all.

    Its a trade off…I know I could have had a lot more fun during my college years if I just borrowed and partied during those years. I’m sure your coworker would agree…college isn’t exactly a fun experience for you when its something you are doing after or before work compared to classes being something you do in between parties and excessive amounts of hanging out with friends doing nothing constructive. However, once those types start to graduate and realize how bad they f~~~ed themselves it made me all the more glad I didn’t go that route. The fact is you are going to want to enjoy life just as much in your late 20s, 30s, or beyond as you will during your college years. Do you really want 21 year old you to sabotage the fun for 28 year old you? I’m glad young me sucked it up so older me could have it easier rather than me being one of those people who get crushed by the reality hammer when they graduate and have to start paying s~~~ back.

    #886692
    FrankOne
    FrankOne
    Participant
    1291

    One of the other objections I have to publicly funded Universities is that it will lower academic standards EVEN FURTHER. That is because the kids, not working to pay for school, will party more and take it even LESS seriously than they do now.

    Interesting comparisons between US and UK to think about…

    Yes, the Right is constantly harping about ‘socialism’. What we have, while not precisely socialism, is a welfare-warfare State. Much insight can be gained from the latest political battle/government shutdown. The fight was NOT over a substantive issue, such as passing a BALANCED budget or REDUCING the scope of the federal government. That is because BOTH parties AND the President, agree on reckless spending and Big Government. NEITHER believe in the PRIMACY of the individual over the State. It is not even questioned whether the State or the individual should allocate resources.

    I’m always harping about ‘Gov’t as a % of GDP’, the reason is, it’s a simple, SINGLE metric, that tells you how FREE a country is. It is also a useful metric, in discussions of HOW FREE we were a century ago, in the US, compared to where we are now in the redistributive welfare State.

    The left wants to give the government more control and more power and they can’t even manage what they already have effectively.

    Well, you already know I advocate a SMALLER role of government in every sector. And certainly there is ENORMOUS fraud in Medicaid especially. Take this case: $87 MILLION dollars, and this is just a ‘small-time’ fraud, over only 6 years, with under a dozen employees! https://homehealthcarenews.com/2018/11/12-home-health-workers-indicted-for-87-million-medicaid-fraud/

    Even going after the enormous number of fraudulent disability claims would be a good start!

    Beer writes: On college…the UK used to have “free” college for everyone and they stopped that system. Why? When it became free for everyone, more people started going, and people started taking it less seriously. They had the exact situation we have right now, a massively expensive college system that was pumping out a lot of useless degrees. England is an example of where “free” college failed massively.

    Yes, there are home student fees for most university students in the UK, excepting Wales and Scotland. The average is about £ 6,000 per year for all these fees; that’s about $8,000 USD — so hardly ‘free’. The other major difference is, you can earn your degree in THREE years rather than FOUR as you require in the United States.

    Getting FINISHED with University quickly, IF you are going, CAN make a huge difference in your finances. In my case, my net worth was $1 MM before I was 30, part of that was because I saved and invested almost of my income and invested it wisely–some of that gain was luck, admittedly, but you make your own luck by investing vs spending and going into debt–this was the tech boom, and I hit it. In my case I lived at home, and graduated at 22. I didn’t make much first year of first job, but my pay went up very quickly and I had no student loans. Did some part time work while in school. I went to a public university, tuition was VERY low back then in the 1990’s.

    #887656
    Anonymousyam
    anonymousyam
    Participant
    4605

    or you just living in a fantasy land where its free?

    No as it is paid for via Taxation which is neither rich donors or all volunteers and has worked in European Countries and even Australia and Canada (where College is at least affordable for those who want to go, if not free for some if not free for all). Either one of this systems i personally am fine with but it has to be one of these 3 choices if you want America to rise above other Nations (to become better then the rest).

    I’ve already paid for mine, no, I don’t want to pay for yours,

    Someone else could use the same argument against you especially if you went to Public school growing up as someone else paid for your Education. Other People pay for the roads you drive on, if you are older or Social Security is not getting gutted then i will be paying for your Social Security etc. But also i can mention other examples like for example are you for Trumps wall? if so then i don’t want to pay for that or are you for the excess Military expense? if so again then i don’t want to pay for that.

    However it is not want i want to pay is what i get taxed nor is it what you want to pay you get taxed.

    You realize Venezuela was a founding member of OPEC along with the Saudis, don’t you?

    Yes but that the founding of OPEC was in the year 1960 and ignore Hugo Chávez got elected 38 years later and made the US turn against Venezuela (because under the Socialist Government he Nationalized the Oil Companies). You also fail to mention now Saudi Arabia is in a trio with the US and Israel with it relying on the US for it’s bombs (the Genocide in Yemen is being carried out with American weapons) and finally the fact that Saudi Arabia paid for rooms at Trump’s Hotel and overpayed as a means of bribing him.

    they are literally all majority white Euro countries that up until recently have had very little immigration

    Yes straight up open borders are bad however the fact is there is no evidence stating it just Whites which can have a Social Democracy. If you state it then you have to explain how it would need to be White Europeans to do so.

    Now onto the next guy.

    The Federal government paying for them, will mean LESS competition and MORE top-down control and even MORE inefficiencies!

    So you are going to push for Corporations to own Schools as that is the free market solution? who makes sure and Regulates the Schools to make sure they promote accurate information and that Fossil fuel Companies cannot use Schools to brainwash the masses into denying Climate change? also what if the Schools skimp out on Education to fit the desires of those in Geographic areas like for example those in Texas not wanting Evolution or Sex Education to be talked about and the market pressures forcing non Elite schools to not adopt them?

    Would Public Schools still exist for those who could not afford to go to School? aka is Education a Human right?

    I also don’t give a rat’s ass what ‘other modern nations’ do. I prefer limited government — a concept NOT embraced by almost any nation’s government.

    It depends on the specific issue whether or not i support limited Government. For example when it comes to NSA spying and the Military having hundreds of bases and being in useless offensive wars i agree that is bulls~~~ but when it comes to the quality of food (which is Regulated by the Government) i love big Government in that example (i personally like not getting sick by eating tainted food something which would occur alot more with limited Government. I also enjoy Regulations on Housing to which where i live will not come tumbling down on me because Regulations on Housing (it has to be built to code) and i also like knowing that my drinking Water is not tainted with or has bacteria due to Regulation.

    But it depends on how limited of Government do you mean? and how you would define it?

    Somehow when the 800,000 federal workers didn’t go to work for a month, I got along just fine. But I still had to take it up the ass and pay for their paid vacation when it was over.

    You mean the Government Workers who did not get paid for over a month and struggled to get by, but your dumb ass is calling it akin to getting a Vacation? they did not consent to the Vacation or want it rather our Bitch of a President who cries about how he does not get a wall used them as Hostages to attempt to secure the funding to build it (either secure funding or these People get into dire straights). They protested stating they wanted to work/wanted to get paid for their work yet you call it akin to getting a paid for Vacation?

    You are one retard.

    is 28.3% because of socialism and restrictive labor laws, or because of US sanctions, immigration, and feminism?

    That is because that is the amount of them who are getting an Education and are in less need of Employment at that specific moment in their lives but as of right now the Unemployment numbers in the Country are around 9 percent which is a high rate however when looking at other evil Socialist Countries they have lower rates of Unemployment then France (Finland is around 7 percent, Sweden is around 6.6 percent, Denmark is almost 5 percent, Norway is 4 percent and Germany is about 3.8 percent).

    So yes less youth are working in France but despite the fact both the Working and non Working are in a far better state then the Working in the United States.

    What do you think would happen to US economic growth if the public sector were reduced from 37% of output to 30%?
    I need to know the specifics on how it would get there to decrease the percent? if you think it is evil Socialism then you are bulls~~~ting as the greatest time for growth was during a period of extremely high taxation from FDR in the 30’s till 1980 till Ronald Reagan got elected to where he cut taxes and gutted Unions with Presidents afterwards doing the same it turns out higher taxes on the wealthy equals more growth and lower taxes along with lower Regulations means a boom bust cycle which f~~~s the Economy and places us into a Recession.

    Just an east coast asshole who likes to curse, If you get offended by words like fuck, cunt, shit, piss, bitch or any racial slurs then you just scroll down.

    #887706
    FrankOne
    FrankOne
    Participant
    1291

    Anonymousyam write: No as it is paid for via Taxation which is neither rich donors or all volunteers and has worked in European Countries and even Australia and Canada (where College is at least affordable for those who want to go, if not free for some if not free for all). Either one of this systems i personally am fine with but it has to be one of these 3 choices if you want America to rise above other Nations (to become better then the rest).

    I am not at all convinced of this. I have a college degree, but it is largely about credentialism. Most of the SKILLS I possess which are valuable to employers, were NOT learned in college.

    If you want the US to rise, first we should define rise. To me, rise means specifically: Higher GDP growth rates than comparable nations (OECD, etc).

    So the first step to that is to REDUCE public spending and taxation, ESPECIALLY corporate taxation since corporations, unlike government, actually DO create jobs.

    Reducing individual taxation also helps. ANYTHING that encourages entrepreneurship. Part of it is also cultural — celebrating people that started their own businesses and became rich, INSTEAD OF demonizing them.

    If 100% publicly funded higher education is central to rising above other nations, why do the countries that have adopted it, not have higher growth rates? Why don’t these countries have higher per capita GDP’s?

    Why isn’t the US economic growth rate reaching ever-higher pinnacles since we have a much higher percentage of the population with college degrees than when I was born? Does the almighty sheepskin ACTUALLY result in much higher levels of REAL economic PRODUCTIVITY?

    Might many of those degrees be useless? My degree is just a key that unlocks the door of credentialism. Skills are what matters.

    Someone else could use the same argument against you especially if you went to Public school growing up as someone else paid for your Education. Other People pay for the roads you drive on, if you are older or Social Security is not getting gutted then i will be paying for your Social Security etc. But also i can mention other examples like for example are you for Trumps wall? if so then i don’t want to pay for that or are you for the excess Military expense? if so again then i don’t want to pay for that.

    However it is not want i want to pay is what i get taxed nor is it what you want to pay you get taxed.

    I’m not sure of Beer’s political views, but mine are simple: I want POLITICS to only MINIMALLY define resource allocations, and for INDIVIDUALS to define the rest. So in practice, that means NO public schools. Parents CHOOSE their children’s school, and must PAY for it. Why? It promotes efficiency. Where I live, the public schools in the urban core consistently are graded ‘F’ for performance. And yet they are not closed! If they were private entities and failed, they would be replaced by effective competitors; their administrative staff would not constantly grow; they would not build new buildings unless actually NEEDED; I could go on and on. Similarly, I don’t want social security. Just put a checkbox on my income tax form. If I don’t check it, I don’t pay in and can’t get benefits. Let all the people who think it’s wonderful participate in this great ‘retirement system’. Just leave me out of it!

    I don’t want to be a part of FDR’s ponzi scheme. Or just make it iconic. Just put a bald eagle checkbox and I’ll check that for personal freedom. That single checkbox can make me ineligible for social security, welfare, and unemployment, but I also DON’T pay any taxes towards them! I’m fine paying for my roads. Just multiply total maintenance cost by my odometer reading / total miles driven on roads I use, and charge me. And let me vote on whether I want improvements on those roads, and then charge me proportionally for improvements. Easy with today’s technology.

    Yes straight up open borders are bad however the fact is there is no evidence stating it just Whites which can have a Social Democracy. If you state it then you have to explain how it would need to be White Europeans to do so.

    Now onto the next guy.

    If open borders are bad, why did the US economy grow so much before 1914 when we started to implement some restrictions?

    To answer the second question is more complicated. It does not ‘need’ to be whites to have a democracy. Japan is a social democracy. Many African countries are democracies. The reason many countries are ruled or have been ruled by strongmen, is because of their histories; take a specific example — a country such as Haiti. When a black general liberated it from France, it had little chance of becoming a modern democracy. Why? Because there was no tradition or understanding amongst its former slave population, of the history of Western civilization, democracies, republics, etc. It was not part of their culture. This does not mean they are genetically or intellectually inferior to white Westerners.

    You mean the Government Workers who did not get paid for over a month and struggled to get by, but your dumb ass is calling it akin to getting a Vacation? they did not consent to the Vacation or want it rather our Bitch of a President who cries about how he does not get a wall used them as Hostages to attempt to secure the funding to build it (either secure funding or these People get into dire straights). They protested stating they wanted to work/wanted to get paid for their work yet you call it akin to getting a paid for Vacation?

    You are one retard.

    You can call me a ‘retard’, but I SAVE my income. So if I lose my job, I have an emergency fund. If I am furloughed at work in my private sector job, I will *NOT* get backpay for when I was off. So yes, it’s a ‘paid vacation’ by definition!

    I think the president’s wall is a waste of money, just like 90% of other federal spending. So on that, we would agree.

    Here is what *I* would have done if I were one of those 800,000 highly-motivated workers: I would have gotten a job in the *GASP* private sector when I was let go. Uber driver. Retail. etc. NOW, I am ‘double dipping’ — I get pay immediately AND get paid for the month off when I return to work! This is the entrepreneurial paradigm.

    I don’t have much sympathy for them regardless; after all, I DID NOT CONSENT TO BE TAXED AT HIGH RATES TO PAY FOR THE ALPHABET SOUP OF FEDERAL DEPARTMENTS WE HAVE.

    So yes less youth are working in France but despite the fact both the Working and non Working are in a far better state then the Working in the United States.

    In the US, GDP per capita is $59,500. In France, it’s $38,500. So I’ll argue I’m in a better state here, than they are there, by $21,000 USD per annum.

    #887731
    Beer
    Beer
    Participant
    11638

    No as it is paid for via Taxation

    So its not free…its just “free” for you while riding the back of someone else.

    College here was much more affordable for generations…then the government got heavily involved in student loans. The fact is universities have no incentive to try to keep costs reasonable when people are willing to go and the government will write them a blank check. Keep in mind…state universities are already government owned, so acting like its the greedy private market causing prices to sky rocket isn’t the case when we already have a massively over priced government system in place.

    Simply put I want to see the cost of college come back down to where it should be if we didn’t have price increases beyond the cost of inflation for 30+ years now, I’m not interested in just shuffling around who pays a bloated price.

    Interesting though, that we have comments in this thread from someone in the UK and articles linked stating what a failure “free” college in the UK turned out to be and you have no reply there.

    Someone else could use the same argument against you especially if you went to Public school growing up as someone else paid for your Education.

    What is the difference between kids in a K-12 school and adults in college? Most of the kids in K-12 schools can’t even legally work and aren’t legal adults. 18+ year old adults in college are legally adults.

    K-12 education is one of the government functions I don’t complain about…you can’t expect a 4 year old who can’t even legally work to start funding his own education, but the same can’t be said for someone who is legally an adult.

    Other People pay for the roads you drive on, if you are older or Social Security is not getting gutted then i will be paying for your Social Security etc.

    You act like I’m not contributing to these things. I pay taxes that support roads, and while 30 years from now someone might be paying for my social security, I’ve been paying for other people my whole life. Meanwhile we just start handing out “free” college, its just a total f~~~ job for me. I had to pay for mine, then I get taxed more to pay for yours. Yeah…no thanks.

    Plus how about people who opt to not go to college? I know lots of people with CDLs and who picked up trades who make a damn good living who didn’t go to college…why should they pay for yours? I also know a few guys that served in the military as a means to get their college paid for…why should they pay for yours?

    Or how do you justify differences in costs? Do you think a guy who does 2 years at community college and commutes for 2 years and ends up making 100k a year when he graduates wants to pick up a bigger share of the cost through taxation than someone who lives on campus somewhere for 4 years and makes 40k after graduation?

    I want the freedom to make my own choices and pay my own way, not lumped in with lazy idiots who can’t pull their head out of their ass.

    But also i can mention other examples like for example are you for Trumps wall? if so then i don’t want to pay for that or are you for the excess Military expense? if so again then i don’t want to pay for that.

    Border security and a military are power expressly granted to the federal government in the constitution. Free college for all, not so much.

    Yes straight up open borders are bad however the fact is there is no evidence stating it just Whites which can have a Social Democracy. If you state it then you have to explain how it would need to be White Europeans to do so.

    Perhaps you should actually read what I wrote previously in its entirety. It worked because it was on a much smaller scale than the United States in countries that are very wealthy per capita with very little immigration, and until recently most of the immigration they did have was from neighboring, and very similar nations.

    Check back in 20 years, these countries will be s~~~ holes as they’ve opened up to immigration from poorer areas and to cultures who aren’t interested in assimilating. By “these” countries, I mean Scandenavian nations liberals love to point at as a success of socialism, and they’re already starting to cut back on social programs as they are opening to more immigration.

    #887735
    Beer
    Beer
    Participant
    11638

    Might many of those degrees be useless? My degree is just a key that unlocks the door of credentialism. Skills are what matters.

    This is one of the major factors why I don’t want to see free college for all. People motivated to get useful degrees generally aren’t the ones complaining about their loans because they make good money after they graduate. People who do things to keep their loans minimal or avoid loans all together aren’t the ones complaining about their loans because they didn’t borrow stupid amounts of money. Its largely the people want to live on campus and just borrow every dime they can for a degree that isn’t marketable that end up bitching about their loans.

    If we want to improve as a nation we should be teaching the next generation to make better choices in terms of higher education. I don’t know many engineers, nurses, or accountants who complain about paying their student loans because they make good money. I know a lot of psych majors, communications majors, criminal justice majors, and some theater/drama majors and almost all of them bitch about their student loans and if they even work in their field they mostly make s~~~ money.

    So in theory if its a s~~~ty investment for someone like Anonymousyam to borrow money to get a bachelors degree in communications, how does it become good for society for Anonymousyam to get that same communications degree with me and you paying for it? Ultimately its still just a near useless degree with a large price tag attached to it.

    I’m not sure of Beer’s political views, but mine are simple: I want POLITICS to only MINIMALLY define resource allocations, and for INDIVIDUALS to define the rest. So in practice, that means NO public schools. Parents CHOOSE their children’s school, and must PAY for it.

    Honestly this would be a great way to make sure 50%+ of the next generation is illiterate. Single moms on welfare aren’t going to be paying for their kids to go to school. Like I said in above post, I don’t mind making sure some kid who isn’t even old enough to work yet gets a basic education, why punish them if their parents are losers, but once they are legally adults its time they start doing for themselves.

    I could go on and on. Similarly, I don’t want social security. Just put a checkbox on my income tax form. If I don’t check it, I don’t pay in and can’t get benefits. Let all the people who think it’s wonderful participate in this great ‘retirement system’. Just leave me out of it!

    This I’d agree with though, and back to my original post in this thread. “Free” college for all is just spreading around who pays for it. If its such an awesome idea go ahead and implement an optional self funded cost sharing system. Let those who want to participate opt in, and the rest opt out.

    If you have 4 people graduating high school, and Person A who wants to be a plumber, Person B who wants to join the military, person C wants to do two years at a community college and commute to a state uni for 2 years and get an engineering degree, and Person D wants to go live on campus in an expensive city for 4 years and dig into six figures worth of debt for a degree in music history, I don’t really see how “free college for all” is any benefit at all to 3 out of those 4 people, or how that useless, expensive degree Person D wants is any benefit to society.

    Who would opt in to the cost sharing system? Person D for sure. Everyone else opts out. Its how all these systems work. If you make good choices such systems end up f~~~ing you on behalf of those who made poor choices. Same for social security. There isn’t a doubt in my mind I’d be retired earlier and have a higher passive income in retirement if I had the option to have all the money I pay into SS and all the money my employer matches instead just put into my 401k. Unfortunately that isn’t an option because if we had that option too many people would take it and spend it before they ever got to retirement.

    You can call me a ‘retard’, but I SAVE my income.

    There are some things you have to understand about Anonymousyam. He’s college age right now, so he is obviously being bombarded by liberal propaganda at school, he has no real life experience, he’s probably never held a full time job, and he hasn’t paid any significant amount of taxes. Of course he is going to have dumb ideas like “free college for everyone” because he hasn’t had the pleasure of watching 1/3 of his gross go to the government yet.

    I’m in my 30s now. 10 years ago when I was in college it was like I was the outlier because I wasn’t a liberal. However now that we have had time to work and contribute, a lot of those college aged liberals who saw no downside to big government back then have pulled a 180 in their beliefs. These days though I’m fairly certain that among my peers there is a strong correlation between having a low income and negative net worth and being a liberal. Its easy to keep thinking big government is great when you hardly pay any taxes and want them to bail you out. Its hard to maintain that mind set when you are one of the ones picking up the tab.

    We all have options. We all make choices. I know people that lived like a pauper for a couple years after graduating even though they got good jobs and they hammered their student loans down fast. I know people who graduated, put their loans in deferment, and rewarded themselves by charging a vacation on a credit card and financing a new car. It undeniable the cost have college has been out pacing overall inflation for decades now, but a lot of people want to compound that problem with a series of other poor choices and then want sympathy, or want to subscribe to the false notion that forcing their poor choices on to others will make things better for everyone, when in reality f~~~ing your neighbor to make your life a little better isn’t helping everyone.

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